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Reichette

Some Who Believe In Jesus, Won't Go To Heaven

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In John 8 we read, (in v31) "To the Jews who had BELIEVED IN HIM (my emphasis), Jesus said..." (in v44), "You belong to your father, the devil...".
Why? Because they didn't hear what God said (v47), in other words, they didn't hold to His teaching (v31).
I am often struck by how some people would cite from the Bible or post a confession of their faith in Jesus, but who would also continue to live unrepentantly in serious sin (what the Word of God would refer to as an abomination before God). Such conduct is obviously in direct opposition to the teaching of God's Word.
Can such a believer in actual fact be destined for hell despite their proclaimed faith in Jesus Christ? John 8 seems to imply just that. (See also James 3:19, Matt 7:21-23).
Isn't it sad that some mainstream churches do not even bat an eye anymore when it comes to such kind of "Christianity"? We, you and I, are called to speak the truth and to warn those people.
Such "Christians" hold the view of a sweet, little Jesus who is all just loving and forgiving and who would "understand" and forgive them their lives lived in continued sin... A Jesus who would somehow make an exception just for them, because "times have moved on" and those warnings in the Bible are supposedly outdated and no longer applicable...
It is a lie from the pit of hell that is even propagated by churches and ministers these days. Jesus is indeed loving and forgiving, but He is equally without compromise to His Word and His righteousness. What happened at the cross and the price that was paid there, won't be mocked without consequence.

 

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You might find this article of interest in light of what you posted above:

 

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2016/10/19/has-trump-caused-white-evangelicals-to-change-their-tune-on-morality

 

 

I think I might have located the posting that could have offended you so deeply (see above): The one that likely invoked your accusations of "your preachers who preach hatred and lies"; that made you state that I am "picking and choosing which bible verse to agree with and which to ignore, as it suits me", the one that made you say, " But we've already seen from your other posts that you believe half the Christians in the US are going to hell anyway because they're not your personal brand of Christianity.

 

When I posted the above, I had in mind people who claim to be Christian, but who would continue to live in a homosexual relationship; people who claim to be Christian, but who would believe there is nothing wrong with killing an unborn baby (and so on).

 

So, care to pick up your Bible and tell us how your personal brand of Christianity differs by citing verses that I have so-called "ignored"?

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I surely don't live by all of them, Shaun. :-)

The Old Testament (OT) law was given to the nation of Israel before Christ came; not to Christians.

Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (eg. the 10 commandments and other laws intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations, eg. the food and clothing rules to confirm their position as a godly example to other nations). A second group of laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (also called the sacrificial laws). A third group of laws were judicial and civil related and specifically given for the culture and place of the Israelites.

 

None of the OT law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross He put an end to the OT law.

Rom 10:4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Gal. 3: 23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Eph. 2:14-15 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.


In place of the OT law, Christians are under the law of Christ today, which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself (Matt. 22:37-39). The OT law is still however a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and for knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the OT law applies to Christians today, would be incorrect.

 

The 10 commandments were essentially a summary of the entire OT law. Nine of the 10 commandments are clearly repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God, we will not be worshiping false gods or bowing down before idols - which is in the OT. We will not be engaged in anything that is clearly described as an abomination before God (incl. homosexual relationships) - which is in both the OT and NT. If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be murdering them (incl. the murdering of the unborn), lying to them, committing adultery against them or coveting what belongs to them. - both in the OT and NT. Etc.

 

Hope that helps.

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The moment that Jesus died, the curtain inside the temple that divided the Holy from the Holy of Holies (i.e. the inner sanctuary where God dwelt among the Israelites), tore open from top to bottom (Matt. 27).

 

So what is the significance of that?

 

In the OT, according to the sacrificial laws, only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies once a year in order to bring a blood sacrifice before God for the sins of the Israelites. The tearing of the curtain symbolizes that we no longer require a human high priest to bring a sacrifice to God for our sins; now we have direct access to the "Holy of Holies" (i.e. to God through Jesus) as Jesus Himself became the ultimate and final sacrifice (the perfect and sinless offer - the only atonement for sins that could fully and forever satisfy God). He is now our eternal High Priest in heaven who stands before God.

 

Hence, the OT law was set aside by Jesus.

Edited by Reichette

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If the OT laws are all chucked out, why do those churches who condemn it always use the OT injunction against homosexuality? Does Jesus specifically preach against it?

 

And honestly, I have better things to do than sit here throwing bible quotes around. As we said before, you argue on faith not logic. This is something you're proud of. I don't need to waste time with this as you're convinced you know the only way. I grew up with afrikaners (NGK) who used the Bible to justify apartheid. I'm well aware of how many Christians use the Bible to support narrow minded views and have plenty of selected quotes to throw around in support of them. Not going to play that game, waste of everyone's time. I like my local churches just fine. One has a pride flag permanently flying to indicate that all are welcome and I love that. That is true Christian principles of love thy neighbor.

 

I agree with the heading of this thread, by the way, but I think you're in for a surprise as to who goes where...

Edited by SJ27

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Jesus did condemn homosexuality as a sin. Both the OT and NT identify the homosexuality as an iniquity or a vile affection which is a grievous sin to God. Jesus spoke out against fornication (Mark. 7:20, Matt 15:18). Jude 1:7 ties together homosexuality with fornication. It is however a sin just like all other sin which can be forgiven and have its power broken through the saving gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with welcoming and lovingly accepting sinners in church, incl. LGBT, thieves, murderers, abortionists, rapists, etc. etc. We're all sinners and we are all in need of God's grace and forgiveness without which none of us will be able to enter heaven.

 

However should a church that flies the pride flag (to use your example) be tolerant of people who so-called come to faith in Jesus Christ, but who continue in a lifestyle of homosexuality as if there is nothing wrong with it and as if God would "understand" it, then they're in for a really big surprise (Rom. 6:1-2). Believers in Christ are new creations (2 Cor. 5:17). The Holy Spirit changes us from producing the acts of the flesh (Gal. :19-21) to producing the fruit of the Spirit. Any church (or "christian") that holds that it is okay to continue to live in homosexual sin (or any other sin for that matter), is a false church - period. (This being the essence of what my first posting above was all about).

 

You're absolutely right about the NGK incorrectly using the Bible in justifying apartheid - that being one of the reasons why I left them in 2000 already at the time when I started realizing all this. But like them, there are other churches that are also using the Bible incorrectly by trying to be politically correct or by trying to appease people when they justify homosexual relationships, as one example. (be careful not to be a hypocrite about one's criticism of the NGK, right?)

 

Only God knows who goes where. Yet, at the same time, one can be brazen about what the Bible has to say, because it is the Word of God after all and thus carries the authority of God Himself. Heaven and earth will pass away, but God's words will never pass away (Matt. 25:35). So if God's Word is very clear about sins that will lead to eternal death, it would be safe for the Christian to relay such a message.

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Fornication ...like Trump serially over the years. Got it. Sin. Bad. Never repented, just justified it. And then he proudly asked and vaunted a known homosexual, Peter Thiel, to speak for him at the RNC and took his money to help fund his campaign. Naughty boy huh. Bad hombre.

 

2000.... hadn't the NGK itself already given up on the apartheid story long before that?!

Edited by SJ27

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Lol, you're making a terrible mistake if you think I'm Trump's moral defender. He's a sinner. Hillary is a sinner. Obama is a sinner. You are a sinner. I am a sinner. Everyone is a sinner and each of us will one day have to give an account before God. (David, in the lineage of Jesus, was chosen by God to be King over Israel, yet he also turned out to be a murderer and an adulterer - worse than even Trump, right?)

 

Of course, the NGK had given up on it long before that. However, their history of incorrect Bible interpretation and my further discovery (around 2000) of some other unbiblical beliefs that they held, were what made me finally decide to leave them. The NGK strayed during apartheid; they continue to stray on several other issues even to this day still.

 

You haven't told me yet which are the bible verses that I have ignored or how you interpret my "personal brand of Christianity" to be different from what the Word of God teaches (according to your interpretation of it).

Edited by Reichette

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So Reichette what about the gods of other religions such as, Allah, Buddah, Vishnu (And a plethora of other Hindu gods), Krishna, Jehova and all the others not named here.

How do they fit in with your views on God?

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The personal name of God is YHVH - the ineffable or unutterable name of the God of Israel. The name appears over 6,800 times in the source text of the Hebrew Bible (the OT). Since believers have a desire to use it, words such as Yahweh or Jehovah resulted as possible pronunciations of it.

 

My view of other gods is that of the Bible: You shall have no other gods before Me (Ex. 20:3). Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6).

 

And many others.

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The personal name of God is YHVH - the ineffable or unutterable name of the God of Israel. The name appears over 6,800 times in the source text of the Hebrew Bible (the OT). Since believers have a desire to use it, words such as Yahweh or Jehovah resulted as possible pronunciations of it.

 

My view of other gods is that of the Bible: You shall have no other gods before Me (Ex. 20:3). Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6).

 

And many others.

 

So one question and one statement:

 

Question: What makes your god any more relevant than the others whom so many believe in?

 

Statement: You are essentially an atheist - you just reject one more god than an total atheist does.

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