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Reichette

Can One Believe Both The Bible And Evolution?

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We are obliged to examine the evidence for the authority and authenticity of the Bible, along with God's existence, and compare them with the viability of the theory of evolution.

 

There is simply no way of reshaping the Bible into a book that also somehow supports the theory of evolution. If we are brave enough to accept the creation account at face value, then theistic evolution becomes impossible to believe. We cannot believe both the Bible and evolution. Both Old and New Testaments consistently support the account of the divine creation of Adam and Eve.

 

The human creation account begins in the first chapter of the very first book of the Bible: Scripture draws a clear distinction between man and the animal world. The passages plainly show that mammals, birds and fish were definitely not created in the image of God - only man shares that awesome distinction and for a grand purpose.

 

The account in Genesis furthermore shows that sex was also created by God, not by evolution as so many scientists seem to claim. Jesus Christ Himself said, “But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female” (Mark 10:6).

 

Other books in the Bible confirm the Genesis account of the human creation.

 

When considering the human eye one may ask, who designed the first eye? How could the eye possibly be the product of an accidental mutation? How could eons of gradual change produce an eye - an astoundingly complex organ that needs all of its highly integrated parts to be fully developed at exactly the same time in order to function? The psalmist gives the credit to God. “He who planted the ear, shall He not hear? He who formed the eye, shall He not see?” (Ps. 94:9).

 

King David says about his own origins, “I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made” (Ps. 139:14). He attributed his existence directly to God and went on to describe how the Creator knew all of his parts even while he was in his mother's womb (Ps. 139:15-16).

 

When the apostle Paul confronted the blatant idolatry of the philosophers of Athens on the Areopagus, he told them that “the God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth... From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth” (Acts 17:24, 26). Paul also accounted the order in which the first man and first woman were created. “For Adam was formed first, then Eve” (1 Tim. 2:13). He also wrote: “For man (Adam) did not come from woman, but woman (Eve) from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man” (1 Cor. 11:8-9).

 

The biblical narrative is clearly in sharp contrast to those who believe that evolution has shaped dust into humanity. In essence this belief amounts to idolatry since evolution has been put in the place of God.

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We are obliged to examine the evidence for the authority and authenticity of the Bible, along with God's existence, and compare them with the viability of the theory of evolution.

 

Oh, Reichette! You start off so well, then continue to fail dismally at nearly every word and idea there after.

 

Firstly you say that "We are obliged to examine the evidence for the authority and authenticity of the Bible". Yet you fail to examine this in absolutely any way at all, in fact you go to extreme lengths to avoid the examination there of in its entirety. You then, unsurprisingly, immediately reference this very same literature as "evidence" to validate your already deeply pre-held belief that evolution is not merely false, but "impossible". Wow! Just wow! That's like me taking as fact and then arguing the existence of Hinkypinks, Grindylows, Hippogriffs and Magic based soley on quotes from Hagrid the Gamekeeper and the writings of Harry Potters books! Which is not just ridiculous, but insane!!!!

 

Secondly, the Old and especially the New Testaments as you know them (i.e. In English or Afrikaans) are old, highly revised, redacted, edited and politically selective texts penned in the Dark Ages that are, at best, third or fourth hand written interpretations of myth, legend and prophecy handed down verbally over hundreds of years and from the Bronze Age, and that are littered with mistranslations, inconsistencies and filled with factual, historical and scientific errors. That any sane person would not only take these books at face value as the factual, literal and perfect word of God, but also use them to disprove, archaeological, geological, anthropological, historic and scientific fact is truly staggering.

 

As for that tired, worn out and unoriginal Creationist diatribe about the complexity and perfection of the human eye as an argument against evolution and for intelligent design, that has been debunked and disproven more times than I can even count. There are not only hundreds of millions of years worth of varified, documented and scientific evidence mapping out countless successful and failed examples of creatures great and small with visual receptors varying in complexity, efficiency and sophistication, but there are literally trillions of still living examples flying, walking, swimming and crawling and all around us today! And even they are changing, dying out, mutating and evolving, slowly but surely as we speak. Even the human eye itself, as with that of some of our mammal cousins, has recently been found in some cases to mutated in some subtle, interesting and yet opposing ways, which allows a percentage of the population to better distinguish colors than the average human (Tetrachromacy), while another percentage of the population has moved in the opposite direction and can distinguish far fewer colors than the average human (protanomaly or deuteranomaly, otherwise known as colorblindness). The verifiable scientific evidence and consensus for evolution is quite literally overwhelming. We know more about and have more evidence for our own evolutionary origins, including that of our fellow inhabitants on this planet, than we know about or how gravity works. Yet we don't see Christian burning their bibles by the millions every time they drop a slice of toast or every time a plane crashes. Rejecting the evidence for evolution out of hand based on an old, highly inconsistent, inaccurate and mistranslated book that hasn't changed since the Dark Ages is the equivalent of looking at a billion-piece puzzle of the Mona Lisa that is missing less than a thousand pieces and saying that it can't possibly be Michelangelo's masterpiece, because some of her hair and part of the trees in the background are missing

 

So to answer your original question, "Can one believe in both the Bible and Evolution?" The answer is a resounding yes! That's because the same kind of person that can believe, without a single shred of evidence, in talking snakes, prophetic burning bushes, angels, demons, mystical towers, mythical flooding and a highly unoriginal and plagerized telling of the birth, fall and resurrection of an all powerful and forgiving savior, can and will believe absolutely ANYTHING when they are told to by the right person, including Hinkypunks, Fairies, Ghosts, Leprechauns, Science Fiction and Science Fact.

 

But this is all utterly irrelevant, because I suspect that even your question was flawed and asked under a false pretense. You weren't really asking whether... a person "can" believe in both the Bible and Evolution, were you? You were actually asking whether a person is "allowed" to believe in the Bible and Evolution and still be considered a Christian! Which is a very different question, with a very different and controversial answer altogether I suspect.

 

Until then, I suggest that you concern yourself with and question the historic, factual and political origins and "authenticity" of the book you consider to be the word salad of God, before questioning the increasing mountain of scientific progress and literature regarding The Origns of Species. As you so very accurately said, you are, after all, "...obliged to examine the evidence for the authority and authenticity of the Bible." Best you get on with that first, buddy.

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I’m in no contest with your unbelief.

 

It is true that a lot of what is said and claimed in the Bible, one has to accept in faith. No one who is alive anymore was there in person to witness the creation in a mere 6 days – it requires faith to believe that, to accept that a snake and a donkey could once talk, etc., etc. However, the Bible holds enough credibility i.t.o. widely acknowledged verifiable factual, historical, prophetic and consistency value to enable millions upon millions through all the ages (and you can bet, into all ages to come as well) to base their faith on it.

 

Evolution, on the other hand, is based upon unproven theory. The assumption that the rate of radio-isotope decay remains linear over thousands and millions of years is just… well, unproven. No one alive has ever been the witness of its linear decay over such a period. Thus one requires faith to believe in the evolution theory as well – in fact, much harder faith. Because until someone can credibly explain to me how the big bang and evolution managed to miraculously circumvent the law of conservation of energy, I won’t even bother to give it the slightest second thought. (Sorry, né).

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Oh, Jason! You can't argue rationally with someone whose world view is based on blind faith rather than science. Let him post his little preachy-posts (subtext: the rest of us are going to hell), it's literally a case of only preaching to the converted anyway - no-one else is going to be swayed.

 

 

(PS: the Mona Lisa is da Vinci ;) )

Edited by SJ27
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You can't argue rationally with someone whose world view is based on blind faith rather than science.

 

Guess at whom the other three fingers are pointing back to, because to believe in evolution as the reason for what we know that exists all around us, requires the biggest blind faith of them all. It violates one of the most basic scientific laws that we know since our elementary school days and it relies upon an unproven assumption regarding the dating technique - both of which are very pivotal to its theory...

 

You have made no attempt at debating the challenges of credibility posed (instead, resorted to characterization again).

 

I can value and appreciate science just fine (I'm an engineer and that's what we work with our entire careers), but I'm afraid I'm not gullible enough to believe in popularized unscientific hogwash.

Edited by Reichette

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Here's a little joke I heard the other day...

 

God and the evolutionist (for fear of getting accused again of singling out atheists...) gathered for a creation contest one day. So God spoke a word and ka-pooff!! There everything came into being - in all of its glory and in total perfection; all in an instant of a time!

So the evolutionist, dumbstruck in his utter amazement, finally managed to gather his faculties again and says, "Ok well......... so mine is going to take a 'l-i-t-t-l-e longer' that that! And by the way God, may I please borrow some of that dust of yours?!"

;-)

 

Nuf said.

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I guess you have to be a creationist to see any humor in that one...it's a different word that springs to my mind.

 

I'm not arguing creation vs evolution with you because there's no point. Overwhelming scientific consensus supports evolution. Many people of many faiths, including many Christians, do not find evolution inconsistent with their religious beliefs. You do, and that's your prerogative. Freedom of religion, remember. Just don't expect the rest of us to believe your fairy dust (to use your own words) just because you claim there can be no other truth, and certainly don't expect us to support it getting taught in schools. End of my presence in this thread - which was really only begun to ask Jason to stop wasting his time. He's clearly a smart guy with better uses for his time ;)

Edited by SJ27

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Overwhelming scientific consensus supports evolution.

 

Yes, that's right. Its when one tries to extrapolate the results in order to explain where everything comes from, where it all goes awry...

 

I'll say again: Anyone who regards evolution to be the reason for everything that came into being, is in essence a person of enviable faith. Otherwise, they do not seem to care for the reality of the most basic of science. (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/energy-can-neither-be-created-nor-destroyed/ and http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/cherry/160905)

 

 

no-one else is going to be swayed.

 

“It is not our business to make the message acceptable, but to make it available. We are not to see that they like it, but that they get it.” - Dr. Vance Havner

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The bible relies heavily on parables to illustrate a point / idea / thought and is defined as:

Definition of parable:
A usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
It is widely accepted (among the less fanatically religious) that to a large degree the bible was essentially a "set of life rules" used to explain to the masses how to live and survive in an age where that may be difficult to do every day and also to convey complex principles in a manner that the "average man" could follow.
Example the Jewish belief of separating cooking utensils for food groups, a necessary precaution in an age where hygiene was not paramount or even understood, became a religious edict that came from God. Not eating pork is yet another as, not cooked properly, pork can be deadly. ..... The threat in question is called Trichinella Spiralis, a worm parasite also of humans. Without going into the disgusting details, if pigs eat scraps of meat containing the larval cysts, its meat will be infected as a result. And at this point, if eaten under-cooked, it becomes dangerous for human beings as well.
My point in all of this is that there was a real need for the Bible / parables in the day to explain things that the average man did not "get" but today we understand a lot of those things better. There are still things we do not understand and some look to science in an attempt to better grasp the meaning and those who turn to religion to explain the mysteries that remain.
I believe it is reasonably evident that I am one of those who look to science but I will not be labelled an "Unbeliever" Reichette as you seem very quick to dismiss / denigrate those who think differently to you and seem to equally enjoy assigning labels to people. I am an Agnostic and for you to understand the difference please read below:

Atheist

A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

 

Agnostic

A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

 

 

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Agnosticism’s argument that God’s existence cannot be proven or unproven, is both correct and honest.

 

Atheism’s claim that there is no God is an unprovable position (just like Theists cannot empirically prove that there is a God).

 

The Bible tells us that we must accept by faith that God exists. Heb. 11:6 says that without faith “it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.” God is spirit so He cannot be seen or touched (John 4:24). Unless God chooses to reveal Himself (which He will do for everyone who chooses to believe in Him), He is invisible to our senses (Rom. 1:20). The Bible declares that the existence of God can be clearly seen in the universe (Ps 19:1-4), sensed in nature (Rom. 1:18-22) and confirmed in our own hearts (Eccl. 3:11).

 

 

To value the Bible simplistically i.t.o. parables of diminishing value as scientific knowledge increases, is unfortunately missing the purpose of the Bible entirely. The Bible's – the Word of God's – primary purpose is to be a soul guide to God who is Spirit and who cannot be seen in person. I think it is therefore very unfortunate that Agnostics hold the view that nothing can be known about God. Exactly just the opposite is true (I know because I experience it). His Spirit lives inside the person who invites Him in and it reveals Himself to them. To those who choose not to accept Him, it all seems very foolish and ridiculous; it appears like an ancient book full of weird and dated tales, etc. I get that.

 

To read the Bible – a spiritual book – without faith, is like watching a 3D movie without 3D glasses: boring, unintelligible, frustrating, etc. When you put on the right glasses (i.e. faith in God), a whole new life opens up in front of you. Maybe you should try it – you have nothing to lose (and everything to gain!).

Edited by Reichette

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I did try it Reichette but the minute priests move off of the spiritual and start espousing politics they have entered a realm where they do not belong and so I chose to leave.

You harbor your blind faith and I will keep my skepticism (think of this like quantum physics with Schroedinger's cat) and I will not try and convert you provided you acknowledge that you cannot prove my beliefs are no more right or wrong than yours and leave it at that. Accept that there are as many opinions and beliefs as there as people and stop trying to convert everyone - try it, you have nothing to lose

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I agree with just about everything you said above.

 

I will just say this though (as I did before), that despite the "as many opinions and beliefs as there as people" remark, common sense should tell us that, most likely, only one will turn out to be the real deal in the end - i.e. the real truth. A hundred people can all stand and argue and have differing opinions about which is the correct liquid to fill a car's gas tank with, but only the one who pours in the right type of gasoline for which a car's engine was designed to operate on, will be the one driving away from there. In the end, there can only be one absolute truth.

 

It is obvious that we all came from the same "factory" (our bodies and organs are the same across all the peoples found on earth), that we are all "programmed" alike in that we share a common sense for what is right and what is wrong, etc. Therefore, there can't be multiple creators out there (else the "designs" and the "molds" and the "built-in programs" will all likely have differed wildly), nor does the evolution theory satisfy the quest for how everything originated by any stretch of imagination. It pretty much seems to point to a single supernatural creator only. One doesn't need to be religious to come to this conclusion.

It is pertinent therefore, as far as I'm concerned, that we owe it to ourselves to perform at least a litmus test of a book - which bears a consistent message - that was written over a 1,500 yr period by 40 different authors and which makes the extraordinary claim to be the word of God.

Its historical references are astonishingly accurate to the extent that the Smithsonian's department of Anthropology once said that, "Much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the old testament, are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories"

 

It is like no other book filled with prophecies that were fulfilled one right after the other. The Old Testament, written hundreds of years before Jesus’ birth, contains over 300 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled through His life, death and resurrection. The odds of anyone fulfilling this amount of prophecy are staggering. Mathematicians put it this way: 1 person fulfilling 8 prophecies: 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000; 1 person fulfilling 48 prophecies: 1 chance in 10 to the 157th power; 1 person fulfilling 300+ prophecies is virtually impossible to calculate.

 

It is quite something to dismiss a book of this magnitude (in my opinion, that is), especially if it also contains (as it does) a message of salvation or condemnation after death - a choice that we all apparently get the chance of making this side of the grave only.

Edited by Reichette

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In the end, there can only be one absolute truth.

 

Agreed on that however, it is NOT you who gets to decide what that truth is. A point you are working hard at avoiding.

 

 

"Much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the old testament, are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories"

 

Agreed again. Please refer to my earlier post about the fact that the bible was essentially a "set of life rules" used to explain to the masses how to live and survive in an age where that may be difficult to do every day and also to convey complex principles in a manner that the "average man" could follow. Think of this like the Constitution for the ancient times so yes, it is representative of the times.

 

 

It pretty much seems to point to a single supernatural creator only. One doesn't need to be religious to come to this conclusion.

 

Seriously? "One single point of origin" I MAY go with but to ascribe that to a "supernatural creator" is asinine, presumptuous and indicates an inability to think beyond the "shock and awe" stage. Remember when everyone believed the earth was flat and you would sail off the edge or maps showed areas where "there be dragons"???

 

 

The Old Testament, written hundreds of years before Jesus’ birth, contains over 300 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled through His life, death and resurrection.

 

Yep, found that data too .... in places such as:

spirituallife/biblestudyandtheology

accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy

bibleprobe

whoisjesus-really

christiananswers

freebiblestudyguides

 

You see - If you only hang out with people of the same perspective it is much like living in an echo chamber - you only get to hear one point of view.....your own and that does not make it true. That is kind of the same as saying "I saw it on FaceBook therefore it must be true as EVERYONE is saying it"

 

For real perspective on mans beliefs how about we look to Men In Black's Agent J for guidance .....

 

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

 

 

How open is YOUR mind?

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My mind belongs to Jesus Christ whom I've accepted as my Lord and my Savior - I would have no other way.

 

And with that we are done. Clearly alternative ideas are not welcome to you so no point in belaboring the point any longer.

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